Card counters

[importculture]

Is it true that the game of blackjack actually offers a negative house advantage for card counters? And is card-counting actually an offence in UK and US casinos? As gaming laws are pretty lax in Malaysia, card-counting is considered ‘legal’ and I believe that is why blackjack tables are seldom in operation. I may be wrong though.

[Craig]

Hi,

As far as I am aware there is no law concerning card counters in the UK or USA, as long as no external device is used, how can something done with the power of the mind be illegal, it would akin to outlawing thinking?

Craig

[jhn]

I think it is only perfect playing conditions that give counters an advantage and that 99.99% of the time there is still a house edge although it is lower than normal.

The americans have a database called griffin that holds details of suspected card counters.I am not sure how accurate it is though.

[Victoria]

As said before, use of your brain is legal here in the states (although legal, using the brain is not done that often here)
In Nevada, a private business has the right to refuse service to someone for any reason except things like racial or sexual discrimination. So a casino with class will let a counter play, if after evaluation, they really do not have an edge or their bet level is low enough to pose no real threat to the casino. If the place with class decides they do not want the counter to play, they generally will tell the person that they are welcome to play any game but blackjack. Other options are flat betting or limiting their spread.
Places that are classless will read the trespass act to the player and remove him from the property, which includes the threat of arrest if he returns.

Most people who count are not proficient enough to really gain an edge but can reduce the house edge. Some, depending on the rules, could gain an edge over 1%.

Though people in operations understand this, casinos and the Griffin detective agency have for years put an illegal spin on counting and many of the public believe it to be illegal. Just last week on the website of a Vegas tv station a reporter wrote a piece that basically called slot cheats, chip counterfeiters and card counters one in the same. My letter to her editor and her have gone unanswered. Griffin is notorious for doing the same and today in Nevada, they may have to start paying the price for their lies and slander. The penalty phase of the wrongful detention of Russo and Grosjean, I believe starts today.
Griffin is really a small company, about 7 employees, that has contracts with many casinos to investigate, compile and distribute information about casino cheats and honest advantage players. In the process of doing this, they lump the cheat and advantage player together without much difference made on their end. They list associates. People who just happened to be at the same table innocently with a card counter or cheat have been listed in Griffin. People who have had disagreements with certain casino execs, but are not cheats nor advantage players are currently listed in the Griffin books. Griffin has operated recklessly with the reputation of people without penalty for way too long, but I think after today you will see more lawsuits against them. They are actually not needed and I expect that the big players in the business (MGM and Harrah's) will take this huge waisted expense and bring it all in house shortly.
Victoria

[retro22]

thing is if one were to do a study i'm sure they could show
that casino profits would be better served if card counters
were treated with respect or, if thats asking too much at
least not with disrespect (you could always bar them from
bj in either case). people that hear the nowadays
almost mythic card counting dream story are the ones buying
the how to books, going to gamble which in some cases they
mite not ever have done if not for the myth and spending a
lot of money before even getting a glimpse of the effort in-
volved to squeeze out that PITIFUL 1 % edge. do any doubt
that overall card counting puts money in casino vaults.

if too much time goes by after the M.I.T. story the industry
should fabricate it's own counters get rich story- what better
advertising could you want.

i would think Griffin reflects the views of those that pay him
and even to the extent of reducing overall profit his employ-
ers just can't stand to get beat at their own game- to actually
PAY someone to play at THEIR tables- not in the USA and to
hell with your lost profits!

Retro22

[sgiles]

I don't have a problem with individual counters, it is the organized team players that concern me.

Right or wrong, the casino manager is responsible for explaining variations in the projected win/loss of the table games department. Part of the job is to avoid being taken down by team play which would involve using "no mid shoe entry" signs and other legal means to discourage counters.

The Griffen book is often out of date and by the time a team is usually identified, it is too late.I just accept it as the pit falls of the business that we are in.

They want the money and so do we. They use skills to try and get it and we use our skills to keep them away. It is a business after all and no casino can afford to give the advantage to the player no matter how "sporting" that might me.

It is not about being "fair" to counters , it is about keeping my job so I can pay my bills.

[Victoria]

Depending upon the proficiency and high bet of an individual counter, you might let him play. Most, I would guess the vast majority, of counters are not really playing a winning game, but if you are faced with a good counter, betting an amount that has an effect, then you probably should take action.

Teams are generally bankrolled where they will effect the bottom line, so a team is a definate threat.

In another thread, we are talking about computorized blackjack systems such as Mindplay21. One of the things that immediately struck me about Mindplay was it's effectivness against the lone, generally not a threat, counter and it's uselessness against the "big player" entering mid shoe. Station a team member on a Mindplay table and have him flat bet and signal a teammate in when the count is right. He comes in big bet and stays big bet till the count goes down and then he is gone. I think the pit and the eye can do a better job against teams.
Victoria

[anin1]

Victoria

Any casino management that relies on a system to beat counters would have to use that system to shuffle every time the shoe goes positive for the customers whether they have suspect play or not. As you point out in another thread this will and has resulted in the customers voting with their feet.
Team play will if cleverly managed usually be virtually undetectable even where Mindplay or another system is in use. I believe that these systems may even lull the floor and eye into a sense of false security making this type of play even easier.
I agree that alert staff watching the games will pickup team play long before the system.

anin

[Baywatch]

I decided to join this site to ask some questions and hopefully get some answers about a crazy situation i find myself in.
Being a gambler for 34 years now playing roulette and blackjack but mainly bj.
10 years ago came my first barring in a UK provincial casino,that came after a terrific winning streak at bj,my best ever i must say.
To me it was obvious why i was banned.
5 years ago I joined some clubs in London;the following year repeat story, barred again after winning despite of losing overall in other clubs.
Very upsett, i contacted the gaming board,they send me an article on card counters commenting that it is up to the club to bar me and that they could do nothing.
So there i was classified as a card counter when in fact i am a basic straregy player with some guidelines for increasing my bets(the dealer busting being one)
This is crazy but it does not end here, got letter yesterday from another London club suspending me after an horrendous week in London losing 8000 but winning around 600 there.
In all only went 6 or 7 times in that club,not all plays were winners but of all the casinos it is there i was holding my own,my last 2 sessions being winners, it was my first and only visit this year.
Could someone from the other side please explain whats going on??
I must point out that in that particular club ,my wife who do come with me notice the general unfriendliness towards us even on the very first visit,this is the reason why we only went there once this time leaving after half an hour with a man on my left permanently looking at us and a woman at the back of us writing in a book, we felt uneasy and left.
I must add that i have been a member since 1981 of another major UK group and never had problems there.
I do not know if i am allowed to name the group which gave me problems, if i can i will.
It seems in my case winning twice consecutively means barring because in their eyes i am a card counter.
I did write to the manager of that club with some comments, did that in the past, they do not even have the decency of answering.
Sad indeed.
Would certainly appreciate your evaluation of this saga.

[anin1]

Sounds like the Boogyman (Griffin) Syndrome at work! In one of the clubs where you played some ignorant member of the staff has made the determination that you are a skilled player (counter) and has reacted to this, reports have been made and the group has put your name on a watch list. Unfortunately many of these decisions are made on the betting patterns or some other set of guidelines circulated to the operators. I do not believe that there are many staff working the floor who have the ability to count a shoe down and to match a customers play to the running count so other factors are often incorrectly used.
In some casinos I am familiar with the surveillance operators have a computer program that is used to help identify those who may be counting, this is only as good as the operator using it and mistakes are still made!
The casinos in the UK all being clubs and the customers having to be members will make the barring of customers a simple matter. It seems ironic to me that all the local hoodlums could well be valued members while a player incorrectly labeled a counter is persona non grata!

anin

[Baywatch]

Thanks Anin,well in fact you only need ONE ignorant person to be barred.
My business took me to a lot of places including the states and it seems that it is only in the Uk that I get these problems.
If i was in Griffin, surely should be barred everywhere including that other UK group i had no problems with.
I will be barred from the whole group when in fact was very well considered in the only other club from the same group, kind of P.... me off.
I feel so impotent against these people, any suggestion to get back at them is welcome but i do not think there is any.

[Coventryman]

"This is crazy but it does not end here, got letter yesterday from another London club suspending me after an horrendous week in London losing 8000 but winning around 600 there."
I presume 600 is £600?
If so I should think there is another reason you have been suspended.

[Baywatch]

Question which will stay without an answer as it is above "them" ,courtesy does not exist in their vocabulary it seems.
Yes 600 pounds(no pounds sign here).
My first barring in 1995 came after a close to 4000 pounds win, in 2001 over 2000.
I wish to have access to my file and i believe have got the right to do so under the data protection act; there must be something in there to be treated in such a way.
Their letter of suspension ended"should circumstances change,we will review the suspension".
I answered by asking to know what circumstances they are talking about?
How would i know?
In any other type of business some type of action could surely be taken against such arbitrary decision but here they are hiding behind their private clubs status and get away with anything.
The gaming board from my last experience is completely biased in their favour,may as well be called "casino board".

[anin1]

Baywatch

Forget about getting even! There is no advantage in wasting time on that.
Move on take what you can as a lesson.

anin

[jhn]

baywatch,

The thing to remember about the gaming board is that they are there to ensure that bankers games regulations are adhered to and that the company and its employees are 'fit and proper'

They cannot actually do anything about people being barred as it is not within their remit.

The ban does seem strange although i would say that i have known managers to ban what they consider to be 'lucky punters'. They never seem to remember the times that these punters lose.

General rule of thumb is that if they spin round three times,circle you with salt and knock their hand on the wooden pit desk then they expect you to lose.If you don't then they will suspect that you are a 'lucky punter' and may bar you.

These people are a dying breed however and the proper people to address your complaint to would be the companys head office.Explain that you were barred and not given a reason as such.Explain that you are a regular customer and are upset at what you percieve to be unfair treatment.

Of course if that doesn't work then unfortunately you have no right to redress unless of course the company is making statements that may be considered litigious.

You have to remember that a company cannot be forced to sell you something or provide you with a service.

Quite simply "it is at the managers discretion to refuse service to any patron" is the way things are. I am sure you will find somewhere where you will be treated properly and it may be best to just move on.

Of course you do have a way to get even.'word of mouth' is a big thing between punters and if you let other punters know that a club treats customers badly then that club will lose business.

[123]

Baywatch

I will assume you are giving a true decription of events and there is nothing you may have done that would have otherwise led them to ban you. That being the case the situation does seem as Anin has described. At some point your play has been evaluated and rightly or wrongly they have identified you as a card counter. This information has been circulated to other clubs and they have also chosen to ban you.

As others have said there is really nothing you can do. Since all UK casinos are memberships they are quite within their rights to refuse service.

All you can really do is contact Head Office as Jhn said. If they have made the call you are a counter you may not get much joy there either.

Look on the bright side. Its better than what happens when the casinos pick up counters in a lot of US casinos

There are plenty more casinos in your area and a new one opening in Brussels at the end of the year. You just have to accept what happened and move on. No matter how unfair it may be someone "seems" to have made the wrong call and you have lost out.

[Baywatch]

Yes, will move on, however unlikely to gamble in the Uk again after this last episode.
They are just a bunch of idiots as far as i am concerned, however friends of mine seems to think i have done something very bad to happened to me 3 times.
I can assure you that is not the case far from it but it stick somehow.
The gaming board answer in 2OO1 did not leave any doubt that i am suspected of counting, key word being suspected, they have not got the intelligence to find out what i am doing and thats nothing to do with counting, could not do nor wish to do that,gambling is a hobby to me , enjoyable until these morons decided otherwise.

[retro22]

Baywatch- your story is typical when casino management is
ignorant. a point i made above is that those who don't under-
stand who is lucky and who is counting will "cut off their nose
to spite their face" as the saying goes. ignorance leads to fear
and when you add in the arrogance of a poor loser wrong bus-
iness decisions are made. while most gamblers know how to take
a loss in stride some casino management personel don't- their
lack of understanding has them thinking that if they have the
house edge then they should never take a big loss and that if
someone wins big they must be cheating.
it may also be that the particular
casinos involved are not doing well financially and big wins
hurt enuf that instead of treating you curtiously in hopes of
your return visit to recapture funds they take the actions you
describe which in full circle may have to do with why their
business is not doing well.

the first thing you can do is accept their invitation to no longer
play there- now indeed you have won their money and they
can't get it back. another thing you could do, and i read you
have considered it, is post their name anywhere you can. i
know you came to this site for an explanation of how this
happened and on hearing that explaination can find gambling
sites like Gambler's Glen and desribe your experience and in which
clubs they took place- others listen and you can affect their business.

i live in the USA and while in disagreement with lots of
things going on in our country realize that my freedom of speach
is guaranteed and would never have to think twice about telling
the truth about a rotton deal i got in a casino. another freedom
i have and have used (not against a casino yet) is picketting
with signs. i know this sounds a little extreme but i sense you
feel you have been truly wronged and to tell those that did this
and others in such a public fashion can difuse your anger and
also force the casino management to reflect on it's policies tho
i can't picture what mite be on your sign.


Retro22

[Mzamba_Slim]

You've obviously never heard of the FCC.
You must be watching too much Fox TV!

I'm not convinced baywatch is telling us the whole story here. With only one side of this story it's tough for me to believe even the most 'ignorant' of casino management are actually throwing people to the curb just for winning?

There are others on these boards who are struggling to eject felonious thugs - (check Coventryman in the 'Do you have doormen' thread).

Free speech is a two way street - try Bill Maher on HBO - he couldnt make his opinions clear on 'free TV'.

[Baywatch]

To Retro 22
In 1995, after my first barring did exactly what you suggested, picketed the casino on a saturday night with leaflets, had a story and photo published in a local newspaper; a chain of television got involved and i went on the news all that to no avail as the casino on any questions asked stick to a "no comment" answer.
The other local casino from another group knew the story but 10 years later i am still welcome there, their comments then was "it is their loss".
To Mzamba slim
Yes, i do tell the story as i know it, me too i would like to know their side but all i get is a brick wall.
I put aside a certain amount of money every year for gambling, only in 1995 did i come out a winner so "they" can not even considered me being lucky but the fact remain that in some clubs even being losing overall i end up winning but apart from that lucky year 10 years ago never big amount of money.
It is ALWAYS in these clubs i held my own that i get banned, the others i get comped meals and i am always well received.
I will actually send eventually these posts to the last club concerned and to their head office but i know too that will not change anything to their stupid attitude, they will NEVER tell their side of the story so they can be completely wrong but as they as they have a blueprint to be petty and arrogant, they do not give a s..t.
Interesting your comment Mzamba Slim as it is exactly the reaction i come accross with some friend, you can not tell the whole story, what have you being up to?
So my reputation do suffer because of the whole regulation set up allowing them to do as they wish without any possible redress.
The gaming board is just a joke, one of their comment 4 years ago was"why have you got a vendetta against the casinos".
So after all there too i am guilty of god knows what, it is why me too i want to know their side.
And the gaming board KNEW of my 1995 story, my picketting etc, so that in fact could be the only reason of the subsequent barrings,if there are others i will never know, i can only guess.

[123]

Baywatch

If all yo have to worry about in life is getting banned by a few casinos you are doing okay. I cannot understand why you remain so angry about it. Things much worse happen to people everyday. I sympathise with your situation if it is as you describe but as I said before, every club being a members only casino has the right to refuse membership. let it go, its eating you up to a point where you are sounding very bitter. Its just shouldn't be that important to your life. There are plently more casinos in Belgium and across the border in Holland. Brussels opens in December and I am sure you will enjoy playing there.

Good Luck in the future but forget about these casinos in the UK. Its within their rights to do so and you just have to accept that you will never really know why but can assume it is what posts here describe.

[Baywatch]

To 123
Thanks to you 123 to try to make me see things in perspective but i am sorry if i sound bitter, its not the case but the way i was treated is just odd and unfair.
I do know i can not do anything as the law stand but at least i can write in this board and express my feelings,thats diffuse my anger.
Of course things are more important in life but its not a reason not to complain about what you perceived to be a total lack of judgment from people who should know better in the positions they are assuming.
Having said that there is as you said plenty other casinos,some of which have being a member for over 30 years with no problems whatsoever.

[Leo]

Baywatch,

This whole situation sounds very intersting but as Slim suggested there must be some reason for this decision and based on the your quote below you yourself hinted at some sort of technique or special strategy...is there any chance of you expanding on this??

Then maybe we'll be able to give some possible reasoning behind why they pushed the barring. Also we all like to expand our knowledge of the industry thru this site and learn anything new.

Originally Posted by Baywatch

they have not got the intelligence to find out what i am doing and thats nothing to do with counting,

[Baywatch]

Leo, i thought i made it clear that my barrings is due to winning.
Maybe, just maybe my way of playing seems i count cards and if that is so they have an good excuse to ban me.
I do a progression and if the dealer bust more often than not, i keep increasing, i can have good days doing so but overall i am not winning.
On my last day of my second barring in 2001, i was playing behind someone but only after the dealer busted so was not playing every hand.
They probably thought i was card counting as i was not playing every hand.
As was said in previous posts,someone a bit thick decided i was a skilled player and that was it.
The thing is i am barred without winning a lot,then go to other clubs playing the same way and get thrashed.
These clubs are without any doubt better judges of what constitute counting.
I do ,i think, play correct BS and that is a signal too as very few players do it, would i be barred if i did not play BS, i do not think so.
Do you know that on my very first barring the other local casino still accepted me till today, lost there 5000 pounds before going to London.
In the same club over the years i met countless players being barred from that club i was barred,yet in that other casino they were welcome so i am sure a lot of cases of barrings like mine exists, just the player does not make a song and dance about it as i did,as was said nothing can be done about it.
In fact that particular UK company is completely paranoiac and for sure must be losing quite a bit of money doing this type of thing.
I was a marked man since that fantastic run in 1995,even i thought i was invincible,"they" still think so today in view of their most recent reaction.
However i feel it still depends a lot of the management of any particular club, they do not let me play long enough to judge me but look at that old story and if i win thats it.
I will mentionned something else previous to my secong barring.
First time there lost over 3000,second time in front of me is a dealer from the provincial casino i was first banned 6 years before.
I killed him winning this time over 3000 and getting all my money back from my first visit.
On leaving the table he commented"you will have to teach me how to play BJ".
After that no doubt he reported me on my barring 6 years previous to win brownies points and their attitude to me change completely, 2 more visits and i was history.
So there it is, i am sure someone from the UK casinos could answer now as up to now only Coventryman did so.
At the end of the day,commonsense do not prevail in some UK casinos.
One last word, why is it such fuss about card counting ?
I thought with all these decks its impossible to do anyway and from one i read about it they can only win 1%,such hard work to win 1%.
Do they really exist or is it some concocted stories?

[Leo]

Hi Baywatch,

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind it as you are claiming/stating that you don't use any card counting system. I am finding it a little hard to believe that these Casinos don't know the diffrence between a skilled player just using basic strategy only as opposed to one using it combined with card counting along with deviating when necessary.

It seems strange because according to your stated playing style of progressive increased betting after the Dealer busts would lead me to believe that the Dealer is pulling "Hi" cards and then busting which means a minus value on most count systems. So the count would be going in reverse and decreasing. Which upon play analysis for me would mean you were not betting in line with an increasing positive count but in fact the opposite.

With that in mind it makes no sense after evaluating several shoes played by you that they would come to the conclusion that you were a "Counter".

Maybe I'm wrong or down the fasle track...what does someone else think??