Wheel Watching

[Mzamba_Slim]

Ok Mike.

What's wheel watching then?

Is this simply loooking for bias in a poorly serviced wheel? Dodallans' already reported on a couple of these wheels where he expects to see the same number once every 20 spins - I didn't know they had a casino at the leaning tower of Pisa.

I'm sure you have a more reasonable explanation - so what is it?

[survtech]

Wheel watching is the practice of logging sufficient trials to determine that a wheel is not random.

Biased wheel play is certainly a bona fide advantage play method but not one that should ever really threaten a switched on operator.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, which was verified by one of the Table Games Analysts, larger casinos proactively monitor the distribution and would be alerted to a developing bias well before a wheel watcher.

Really, if a casino has allowed a bias to develop to the point that it overcomes the house edge it deserves to lose its shirt.

Mathematically 3000 to 5000 trials are required to statistically prove a bias to a 95% confidence level.

I have heard much about other methods of determining a bias much earlier but I am skeptical; I would have thought that a bias that could be detected within minutes by a punter would have also come to the attention of the operator.

So, Doddallan, I am not saying that exploitable biases don’t exist I am saying that they shouldn’t, particularly at Burswood Resort Casino where you play.

FWIW Allan, other people have told me that they are playing biased wheels at Burswood but when they turn up to play in their ’87 Corolla and their plastic K Mart shoes and rush up to the $1 table, I have to wonder.

Also Allan, if you have found a wheel with a 40% edge all you have to do is show us the Winners checks. (You can blank out the name to protect your identity).

Michael

[doddallan]

Any reference from myself with regards to biased wheels at Burswood, was from a number of years ago.
It is like even the best paying jobs, you get bored with it after a while and the people around you.

So if Burswood didn't have any biased wheels, why did they adjust their wheels like a very strict military operation?

If your wheels aren't biased all you need to do is keep them clean, level, rotate them now and again to stop wear in the same area of track, and maybe move them around the casino a few times.

But no, Burswood did a little more than that.
I suppose you are going to tell us it was to stop bias from developing!

Also why would we want to be paid in cheques?
As mentioned in another post we just take payments as cash chips and cash in amounts less than 10 grand when we felt like it.

[Mzamba_Slim]

"As I mentioned in an earlier thread, which was verified by one of the Table Games Analysts, larger casinos proactively monitor the distribution and would be alerted to a developing bias well before a wheel watcher."

yes they do monitor that stuff - so I guess we can dismiss the wheel bias thing as any kind of threat - yes?

Although Dodallan appears to still have the edge on us - and yet we can't figure out why? Or is it that we open 24 hours a day for him and his friends?

[Mzamba_Slim]

I wonder if Dodallan's system allows for a toke for the Brinks Truck driver?

[survtech]

I think it would be fairer to say “If we have biased wheels we deserve to be shafted”.

If a punter can detect a bias, so can you! It should not be a happening thing. If it is, it's your own bloody fault.


Mike

[Mzamba_Slim]

Since the dealers are best equipped to identify the 4th revolution from last - wouldn't they be ideal candidates for a 'wheel clocking crew'? That would solve a part of the 10 year 'learning curve' wouldn't it?

Just a thought.

[doddallan]

How would a dealer know when they are 4 spins out?
They haven't got Mike's computer in their pocket.

[survtech]

“As mentioned in another post we just take payments as cash chips and cash in amounts less than 10 grand when we felt like it.”

No you don’t Allan. That sort of behavior gets you a “Suspicious transaction report”.

Another Kitchen Table myth; “Stay under ten grand and you will not get reported to the CTRA”.

Burswood might not be the smartest casino on the block but you don’t consistently take significant (upwards of $10k as you imply) off a roulette table on the main floor and not get noticed. Nor do you fool the cage with amounts just under the reporting threshold.

Can we put Doddallan to bed?

Mike

[Mzamba_Slim]

I like Dodallan - I'd be out of work without him! Oh, Allan - tell your friends where you got the money!

[survtech]

“Since the dealers are best equipped to identify the 4th revolution from last - wouldn't they be ideal candidates for a 'wheel clocking crew'? That would solve a part of the 10 year 'learning curve' wouldn't it?”

Yes, and this addresses one of 123’s questions about why are management not passing this stuff down the line.

It’s a judgment call, there’s a lot more to it than meets the eye.

We could address this if you wish.

Mike

[doddallan]

"We could address this if you wish."

Which has been requested several times but avoided, apart from having a device in your pocket.

[survtech]

If a dealer had the ability to detect, say, the fourth revolution from the end and if she /he were taught how to spin the rotor at half the speed of the time-to-drop, you have potential collusion problems, particularly in those jurisdiction which allow call bets.

Mike

[Mzamba_Slim]

I have to say that there may be some sense there.

Surely not. Gizza job Mike!

[survtech]

Mzamba Slim

Non of this is new to the progressive, larger operations in Australia and the UK.

This whole issue is being addressed by the gaming industry and wheel manufacturers.

Abbiati were the first manufacturer to get on top of this. The Ritz were the first casino to adopt the technology.

Michael

[Mzamba_Slim]

Get on top of what?
And what technology?

Would that be the technology you earlier claimed no one would buy?

[survtech]

No I am not referring to an earlier thread.

With all due respect, I mentioned earlier that I had intended to move on to advanced techniques and countermeasures rather quickly.

123, pointed out that we should first establish the credibility or viability of the basic premise.

I am not going to discuss advanced methods with you while your head is still in the sand.

You can’t have it both ways Mzamba, you either accept that the technique is viable and I will discuss countermeasures and the state-of-the art in wheel/table design.

If you don’t accept the basic premise then the rest is academic.

This is entertainment for you; for me its business.

I am not here to chew the fat with people with nothing better to do; I am here to create awareness with those people who sign the checks. If I determine that they’re not here, I’m outahere.

[doddallan]

I'll accept on Slims behalf.

Any chance of explaining to Slim how a dealer will spot the 4th rev out on a 2.8 or 3.2 rev?

Also any reasoning why the 4th rev is so important?
What happens on the 4th rev is linked directly with what is happening on the 5th, & 6th etc.

[survtech]

Allan, you're a sweet boy but I'm going to ignore you, sorry; I'm after bigger fish.

You can still email me privately, I'm not cross with you :-)

Mike

[colorado caleb]

It's silly!

[survtech]

Caleb

Good post. You have watched a wheel or two haven't you.

The cadence or casino supplied timing pulse is not generally known.

Mike

Added after reading later posts.
I might have jumped the gun with the praise; dealer signature?

[doddallan]

Crikey Caleb you are going to get Mike paranoid.
I can see him walking around Burswood this afternnon with a stop watch timing the flashing lights on the slots.
Nice idea though.

I think Mike should send you a payment for that advice because I bet he will mention it at his next seminar.


Mike says. Looking for bigger fish,
I think you just want to have a few put downs on people in higher places in the casino industry, maybe try and make them look like they know less than yourself, then maybe other similar people will be impressed and take on your business.

I followed most questions you put my way, and it was you who avoided replying to others that may have been more challenging.

I am off for some nuts.

[colorado caleb]

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssss

[colorado caleb]

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[survtech]

“Mike how do you determine when only 3 or 4 revolutions are left? Thank you in advance.”

I can’t do it without a computer, but I haven’t put the effort in. I think dealers can do this by ear?

“Mike, what restrictions have been put in place at all the
Australian casinos where the Perth advantage players
have been playing?”

Early NMB and any combination of factors (ball choice, rotor speed) etc that appears to randomize the scatter.

The truth is, Caleb, this guy is very personable, and he is liked by everyone who meets him. I think (know) there is a lot of respect for him. He is still getting a game.

Mike