Casino Blackjack tracking system?

[Richard Kirkes]

Hello:

Last night I was playing 21/BJ at the El Dorado Hotel & Casino in Reno, NV. This was a $5 to $2000 table, double deck game & the player could double down on any 2 cards. After the 2 decks went though the shuffling & striping process, the dealer placed both of the decks into a "well" that was built into the table to the dealer's right side. She would wait for the light to turn green then burn the top card & then deal. What was also interesting was that when a player sat at the table the dealer would type in information on a display screen in front of the chip rack.


I have never seen such a thing at the 21 table, so being kinda curious I asked the dealer what kind of device was the "well".. she stated that it was a "tracking system of some sorts" ..yes a vauge answer. I asked another dealer the same question & got a similar responce.

Can anyone out there tell me more about this kind of "tracking system"? What exactly does it track ? Do you have these type of tables in your Casino?

The name on the plastic border of the display panel stated either Monoplay or Monoplayer( sorry .. it was kinda late ). I did a google seach & couldn't find anything.


Sincerely


Rick

[ian]

Hello Richard,

Welcome to the forum.

You were playing in a casino that has the MP21 system.
http://www.mindplay.biz
http://www.mindplay.biz/products/blackjack.shtml

In fact it was developed at the Eldorado in Reno and is also installed at the Las Vegas Hilton.
(It will be interesting to see if the new owners keep it!).

We have covered the system and it's capabilities in a couple of threads so doing a search will reveal more information. Several cameras placed into the float-tray recognise the cards as they are dealt.

The reason for all the keypads and gadgetry is to track players bets so that they may be rated more effectively.

There are also other statistical components that are built in. Two that spring to mind are the ability to rate the efficiency of each and every Blackjack dealer and also to use card counting to inform the dealer when to shuffle.

The latter feature I believe has been turned off at the request of Nevada legislators.

If a player is not allowed to use electronic devices to track cards in play - why should the casino have that advantage.!

Were the tables busy by the way ?


Ian

[Richard Kirkes]

Hey, Ian .. thanks for the link & the info!! That's very high-tech stuff. The deck/decks went positive many times & I don't think they "shuffled-up" on me. The deck changes were at least once an hour . So, I don't think they were keeping a running count using their system.

I am not a big bettor, $ 5 to $15 a bet at 21.. and on the weekends in Reno it's tough to find a $5 table. Silver Legacy & Harrah's had a minimum bet of $10 at their tables. I went to Circus Circus about 4:00 am & they had plenty of seats available with a minimum bet of $3.

I enjoy your site!

[Al Rogers]

Ian wrote:

... and also to use card counting to inform the dealer when to shuffle.

The latter feature I believe has been turned off at the request of Nevada legislators.

------------------------------------------------

Ian, why do you believe this? I don't think this is correct, although it may be after the lawsuit that is about to be filed against everyone involved with this device.

[ian]

Hello Al,


Only in America I suppose. It is sure to make interesting reading.


Surely a casino operator has every right to offer whichever game(s) they choose provided that they have been approved by the relevant gaming commission, board or licensing authority.

You are still playing Blackjack no matter how many wires, keypads or other gizmos may be present on the table.

Most players in the U.S. like being tracked anyway so that they can get all their freebies.

I cannot see what the problem is.

Also if a player does not like the playing conditions at one casino they are free to go to another. It is not as though it is difficult getting a game in Nevada.


Ian

[Al Rogers]

... it is an illegal device, pure and simple.

As you said, Ian,

If a player is not allowed to use electronic devices to track cards in play - why should the casino have that advantage?

------------------------------------------------------------------

The casino shouldn't. We have had this discussion before in other threads. Most of the people who understand Mindplay's capabilities believe it to be an illegal device. The Nevada Gaming Control Board refuses to enforce the plainly-written statute. That is nothing new.

We will have to wait and see what the Court has to say.

[Al Rogers]

From the article:

--------------------------------------

Shuffle Master's suit seeks a restraining order on the distribution of the MP21 system and the recall of all existing systems, a declaration that Alliance violated Shuffle Master's patent rights, a declaration that Schubert is the rightful inventor of the system and unspecified patent infringement damages and exemplary damages for the misappropriation of trade secrets.

---------------------------------------

I'm sure there are many casino patrons who hope that both of these companies spend so much money on this litigation that they both go bankrupt.












http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...517285326.html

[ian]

Hello Al,

Your input is always welcome but I do think that you tend to be very negative. Can't you see any benefits to casino players at all from the use of new technology ?

There were those who believed that Chess computers would destroy the game. Similar things were said about online casinos and Internet Poker rooms - Oh they will put the real casinos out of business etc...

None of those prophecies have even come close.


On the lawsuit. It will be interesting to watch. Alliance and Shuffle Master are both not short of funds. It has to be noted though that on two of Shuffle Master's patent lawsuits over rivals machines they have ended up cutting a deal.


Ian

[Al Rogers]

I don’t think that giving the casinos the “legal” opportunity to cheat players with Mindplay is beneficial to the players. We have had this discussion about the Mindplay equipment before, which is why I posted the news article. My opinion of Mindplay has not changed. It is a cheating device, plain and simple. I don’t mean to sound negative. I am pragmatic. The industry is shooting itself in the foot by allowing this type of skullduggery in the name of “efficiency” or “patron benefits.”

I do not believe that any of the major casino companies would have a company policy of cheating their patrons. However, putting technology with easy cheating capability in the hands of relatively low-level employees who may not have their employers’ interests at heart is dangerous. Remember the cheating scandal at the Venetian? The perpetrators were high-level managers who went bad. Of course, being Nevada, the penalties imposed were miniscule, and at least three of the four scoundrels are still working in the industry. So much for effective regulation.

Why give pit supervisors and shift bosses the opportunity to embarrass the industry? To save paying a few floor people’s salaries, and to keep a few skilled players from raking some crumbs off the table? A false economy, in my opinion. It is overkill.

I was being facetious about this litigation putting these companies into bankruptcy. I know they are financially strong.

[ian]

Al,

I have to disagree with the use of the word "Cheating" for a second time. It is far from appropiate.

You say yourself that players are contemplating bringing their own lawsuit.

Well let them. That will also be interesting. Perhaps if they win the case it can be described in such a manner. But until that time it is an invention that has been passed by those entrusted with enforcing current gaming regulation.

After 2 years or so it is still basically on trial in a couple of casinos in the U.S. and perhaps the odd Indian casino may give it a go.

IMO not every casino is likely to want a system that needs half a dozen or so cameras and a bunch of other specialist equipment per table. The simplicity of traditional table games is after all their biggest asset.


Ian

[Brazen]

I find it hard to believe that shift managers and pit bosses would not use the "we had a counter at the table" excuse to shuffle up on a player-friendly deck. What a great way to increase the hold. This new technology will certainly be more effective than changing the dealer every 10 minutes.

Sweat shops like the Coast casinos and The Frontier with Mindplay on every table is a scary thought.

[Jennifer]

I think I've said it before but tweaking the conditions of the game is surely a better way to nullify counters than all these clever (and expensive) gadgets. This type of equipment surely represents captial cost to buy and maintain for the house. How far is that investment returned in more accurate comping?

The jury still seems to be out on how much they are comping aids and how much they are being used to unfairly shuffle up.

[aseasyas123.org]

First off, I really love this site and the message boards. I don't think I have seen its equal.

I spoke in person to a casino owner from Reno who spent $200,000 to add among other things the MP21. He told me straight out it was a device to prevent card counters from winning, even though the gaming commission has said you can't use a device to signal when the deck is favourable for the player and reshuffle. So, they get around it by saying it is for comping purposes.

We spoke of the Playing 21 Program (http://www.playing21.com) and how it shows so many different ways to count and win, the MP21 system could all be a waste. Meaning, the player could just change his counting every single shoe.

Personally I think the casinos over react sometimes and much of this stuff does them no good. If the trust isn't there, either is the player.

[scottscroupier]

Ochhh man, it's obvious that these machines are used by the house to combat counters not primarily for comping. But what's the problem with that? The house job is to fleece the punter as quickly as possible. If this means using technology to trash the counters then good.

Aren't we all in it to make as much cash as possible.

[dodgy77]

The point of this reply is that in the US the dealers dont want to hammer the shit out of the players as they wont make any tips that way.
I personally would steer clear of a casino using the MP21 system as its primary function is to count the cards as a semi-knowledgeable card counter would, allowing the house to advise of a shuffle-up if needs be.

This harks of cheating on the houses side to me, as they boot any players they deem as card counters, so why should they be allowed to do the same for their benefit..
So why if I was a US dealer would I like this introduction.? Fair enough for UK dealers who have no clue about customer service or tips.
My personal opinion is that this system wont be popular with players and so wont be mass introduced to all US casinos.

[Jennifer]

Originally posted by scottscroupier
The house job is to fleece the punter as quickly as possible

Ermmm..... no, actually. The house job is to provide top class customer service and good entertainment in a transparent setting.

Naturally, a tranparent setting does not include the use of computer equipment for some of the purposes described.

[ian]

I have no doubt that wherever the Mindplay system is installed in the U.S that the local press will send a reporter down to check it out who will also sound out opinion from the regulars.

This will initially lead to a great amount of interest from the players. But if the card tracking and counting feature is utilisesd then the experienced, regulars will soon detect it.

This could result in much lower drops and players migrating to other tables. On the other hand if customers are more satisfied that they are getting the rewards and comp's that they believe they deserve it may develop additional loyalty from sections of the client base.


As for scottscroupiers opinion - I was like that once. Wipe e'm all out!

A perfect attitude for a jumpy Pitboss with a manager giving him/her grief at 3am or a croup having the regular bunch of no-hopers on his/her table and knowing that if they can't close the table they are all locked in.

That attitude is not going to get 4 - 5,000 punters through the door post dereg which is what will be needed if 1250 slots are going to be viable.

Bad attitude's will have to be surgically removed from many staff - all the way up to the very top. It might possibly cure itself though if tipping is allowed to be applied to the inflamation.


Ian

[Victoria]

I am new here but used to work at the LVH (Las Vegas Hilton) which had Mindplay but removed it recently.
The system is as said, touted to properly give comps, evaluate players, and detect counters. The reactions I noted and also felt were as follows:
About as many players thought that Mindplay hurt their amount of comps as those who thought it improved it.

Players were uncomfortable with the gadgetry.

Table game supervisors hated the thing. They believe that one of the main purposes of Mindplay was never explained to them but quickly became obvious. If Mindplay works at evaluating players, then the pit staff can be reduced.

Mechanical problems slowed the game down and the take.

Dealers also disliked the thing and the explaining that went along with it to the players.

It did detect counters but may be flawed against a counting team. Seems that the individual counter will be evaluated by his play and bet amounts in relationship with the count. But if some person is flat betting, the count gets favorable and he signals a partner in who starts with huge bets, Mindplay has no history on this player and would just consider him a big player.

To me it is just a way that they sooth the paranoia about counters, perhaps reduce pit personel and god forbid, make sure some looser does not get an extra buffet out of them. I think the pit will make sure that the thing costs them much more than it is worth.
Victoria

[ian]

Hello Victoria,

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for contributing your observations.

I wondered why in the last Bally Gaming release on Mindplay 21 that there was no mention of the LV Hilton.

Alliance Gaming Announces Contract With Galaxy Macau for New MindPlay Baccarat Table Technology
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040726/lam034_1.html

Now we know, the new owners Colony Capital decided not to go with it.
You mention several problems and the one on counting teams not being specifically identified (as they would be with more direct supervision) would appear to be a major drawback.


To be fair however it could be that there is a niche market for the product, and Macau that has a significantly higher table game win per-day than the Las Vegas Strip could be more suitable.

Also European salon Prive's with their high stake games. I am not sure though that players would appreciate every move they make being analysed. They are certainly not the type who are looking for freebies. They want staff who are pleasant, smile and know their name - something no table game add-on has yet been able to master.


Ian

[Victoria]

Thanks for the welcome Ian.

Since I know little of European or Asian Casinos and comps there, I can only draw from your statements that there is a considerable difference between the wants of those players and American players.
Here, I think, most regulars already believe that they are getting the best of the comp system if they are players at the older Vegas establishments. Places such as the Hilton, Tropicana, Caesar's, and all of downtown. Many think that perfect computorized calculations will cost them. I have seen so many of them place a much bigger bet than usual on the felt when a supervisor comes over and then when he is gone reduce their subsquent bets. Get that high bet evaluation when not really betting that high. It is a game many play.

Now in the tourist places, MGM, Venitian, Belaggio, Mandalay Bay and the likes, these people are less concerned with comps and being evaluated carefully may get them more but, these places give next to nothing anyway unless you play for very serious money.

We even have a book on comp hustling.

My biggest problem with Mindplay is with the capability that it has, which the casinos say they will not use. It has the ability to let you know when the remaining cards in a shoe favor the players. This means all players, but only the counter would be aware of this. If they just use this ability to evaluate a counter and decide what to do with him, that is fine, but what if somewhere, someone decides that when the remaining cards put the house at a disadvantage, we break the shoe and shuffle. In my opinion, that is cheating the players. As of now, I do not think this has happened yet, but human nature being what it is, if this machine can do this then someone will eventually do this.

Victoria

[ian]

Hello Victoria,

Can you tell us what you used to do at the LV Hilton ?
Also, are you now or have you ever been a dealer ?

You do not mention it but one would presume that you have dealt using the Mindplay system. Or have you only encountered it as a player ?


Ian

[Victoria]

Ian

Family connections way back to before I was born. Uncle was a pit boss in Cuba before the Castro regime. Other family members have worked in Atlantic City and Vegas in casino jobs and office types, some quite high on the food chain. My husband is a dealer.
Though working for "casino marketing" (lovely term), my background gave me quite a bit of knowledge of table games especially blackjack.
No longer do I work in the Industry, but besides family I have countless friends still in it.
By the way, I am also a player but except for one hour of curiousity, do not play on tables with these things.

Hope this answers your curious question.

Victoria

[Jennifer]

Hi Victoria. Your circumstances sound a bit like mine. I've still some connections, but no longer work in the industry. And, we go along socially and play roulette UK and abroad now and again. It's more of an evening out and a nice meal type of thing.

Back to mindplay, I'm all for technology but I 'm not convinced this particular technology is being used with the right honesty. The house posts some rules to a game which are in its favour. If a device could be used to alter the odds of a game further in it's favour then that should be made transparent, and be within the regulations, not hidden under a smokescreen.

If you are going to alter the game by some obvious means, eg 6:5 blackjack then that is fair, and I'd see that as preferable to a clandestine attack which I think will decrease play. And lets face it we need the cash coming in to maintain a unique entertainment service under competition from many angles.

[ian]

Hello Victoria,

You displayed in your posts a degree of inside information and I presumed that you had actually dealt with the system at the LV Hilton.

I did a Keyword check on Google (email address included, that I will never reveal) and found several posts on Rec.Gambling.Blackjack.

They were very even handed and well written, just like your posts here, but from a player standpoint. You have now explained your circumstances and with the nature of some of our discussions on the Forum I have to do the occassional cross check.

Once again Welcome


MP21 is a big ticket item, its design, functions and capabilities will always arouse debate. I wish to be as fair as possible to the developers and suppliers. Hopefully we will get some comment from those who have dealt using it or from floor persons to find out how it effects their duties. Surveillance too - what's their opinion ?

Also it would be nice to find out if tables equipped with MP21 actually win more, after all it has to pay for itself wherever it may be installed.


Ian

[Forte Fan]

Ian,

I think the issue that concerns many of us is the device's ability to alert the dealer when the deck favors the players, requiring them to shuffle-up and turn the tables around on the players when procedures dictate it.

Whether or not "preferential" or “selective" shuffling by the casinos is cheating has yet to be decided in U.S. courts, but I think that if the practice continues to expand, especially with the aid of computerized devices, that time is rapidly approaching.

Ask any player who has experienced preferential shuffling and he’ll tell you that the casino is knowingly manipulating the dealing of the cards to its advantage and to the disadvantage of the players, and those players feel that they are being cheated. It is bad enough when card-counting pit personnel instruct dealers to shuffle-up when the deck is ten-rich, but to permit casinos to use computers to facilitate this process just seems wrong to me. It was said several times in this thread already and I agree: if the players can’t use devices to track the cards for their advantage, neither should the casinos.

In my view, too much time and money are expended on card-counters. The number of really successful card-counters worldwide is far more limited than you’d be led to believe; the skills and self discipline needed to be among the very best are far higher than those possessed by the average wannabe counter or Square John tourist who has read a few books and is out to test his mettle a couple of times a year. As a result, the methods and attempts by many casino managers to deal with these “threats” and protect their assets are often counterproductive: far more money is lost slowing down the games and turning good customers away than the elite card-counters are likely to take home.

Forte Fan