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  #26  
Old 30th January 2011
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Nine box BJ

Onboard P&O Cruises Pacific Pearl


Cruise(@Casino)27-30/Jan/2011
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hauoli0920/5398615521


Cruise(@Casino)27-30/Jan/2011



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  #27  
Old 6th February 2011
Oktopus_Ken Oktopus_Ken is offline
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5 and 6 spot BJ tables

The first time I saw a BJ table with anthing other than 7 spots, was on my first visit to Las Vegas in 1980.

I believe that these tables were used in casinos that dealt Single Deck BJ, (even if not all tables were SD). There are 2 reasons:-

1. To limit the number of cards that a proficient player is able to see; (such is the sensitivity of SD).

2. To ensure that a 2nd round can be dealt to a full table of players from a Single Deck, without the risk of running out of cards and having to re-shuffle in order to complete the round.

The 5 spot table serves the same purpose. I believe it is still possible, in Single Deck, for the dealer to run out of cards on the 2nd round with 6 spots played.
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  #28  
Old 30th July 2011
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Lightbulb Five box - Nine box revisited

I still can't get my head around the 5 box policy that seems to be prevalent at Caesars/Harrah's properties - also in London at the Empire, which is almost certainly one of the 3 busiest casinos in Britain - if not the busiest.


Here are two images posted on Flickr this weekend.

5 Box
Caesar's Palace Resort & Casino -- Las Vegas 2011
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9406378@N05/5990102260/


9 Box
Launch of Royal Caribbean International's Allure of the Seas.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cruiseships/5991070331

Launch of Royal Caribbean International's Allure of the Seas.



Why would you only have 5 boxes on BJ in a busy casino ?
For American locations that means 2 players are excluded as Petrol's always want their own box. In Europe you're forcing punters to bet behind another, something not everyone is happy to do - so many will also walk away.


There's now a dogs breakfast of BJ side bets available that usually have a higher house advantage than your average bad BJ player. So again by having 5 spots instead of 7 a casino operator is eliminating the action from 2 + 2 potential bets.

Casinos onboard are happy providing 9 boxes along with 9 side bets as can be seen from the image above taken onboard RCCL's Allure of the Seas and earlier in this thread.


There could be another reason, and I may be throwing the cat in with the pigeons here.
Perhap's U.S. dealers these days simply can't handle a 7 or 9 box game ?


Additional comments are welcome


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  #29  
Old 31st July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian View Post
In Europe you're forcing punters to bet behind another, something not everyone is happy to do - so many will also walk away.
Or how about customers leaving the table when a 6th player sits down, because the table gets too full?

You are way too much focussed on the UK situation where there is limited space, limited staff, etc.
Think of a situation where you have unlimited staff, unlimited tables, but the one and only constraint is that you have 35 customers to serve.
Well, how about one table with 35 boxes? It surely saves staff costs! But you will know the answer to that one.
Then 2 tables with each 18 boxes? Probably the same answer.
We go on 3 tables with each 12 boxes, 4 tables with each 9 boxes, 5 tables with each 7 boxes (you really think this is optimal?), 6 tables with each 6 boxes, 7 tables with each 5 boxes, 9 tables with each 4 boxes, 12 tables with each 3 boxes, 18 tables with each 2 boxes or simply one on one.

Trust me! The optimal choice is 5 boxes in a place like Macau, but it takes you a guy like Andrew MacDonald to get that job done. (And the latest gossip I heard, is that he usually comes up with many other good money saving ideas which mean job losses in which even management positions are no longer safe, so nobody will ever suggest him to the CEOs)

Now back to the UK situation. Even if a small casino in some remote area where there are no other casinos nearby needs to make the choice of how many seats it wants on its let us say 2 BJ tables, then my guess is that still 5 boxes is optimal. The thing is that degenerate gamblers simply want a bet and if the BJ tables are full, they will lose their money on roulette or some other game.
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  #30  
Old 1st November 2011
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Unhappy Adelaide Casino - 5 Box BJ

This is a neat player instructional video from the Adelaide Casino.

But on a table that's already been extended to accomodate a CSM and includes a drinks surface I can't understand why one would have only 5 boxes. Especially when there's also a high percentage side bet on the layout.

By having just 5 boxes operators are simply restricting the amount of potential money on the table and customers that can be accomodated. Also hands per hour will be less as dealers are spending more time picking up hands instead of dealing them out.

Crazy.


Adelaide Casino: Blackjack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaL1q4OweSY




www.adelaidecasino.com.au
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  #31  
Old 2nd November 2011
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It seems my well illustrated last post has fallen into deaf man's ears.
Anyhow I will try once more:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian View Post
Also hands per hour will be less as dealers are spending more time picking up hands instead of dealing them out.
Go to a table where there are 5 players playing 5 boxes. Count how many hands are being played in an hour and then do the same thing using the same dealer with 7 players playing 7 boxes.
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  #32  
Old 2nd November 2011
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Unlimited staff, unlimited tables

"Think of a situation where you have unlimited staff, unlimited tables,"

Apart from Macau and some S.E. Asian countries I can't think of a location in the developed western world where a Pitboss might have the luxury of unlimited staff and unlimited tables. It would also be nice for all operators to have an unlimited number of players with seemingly unlimited bankrolls

That honour however is definately held by Macau but Blackjack isn't the main game there - Baccarat is. Minimum bets are often approaching $50, so yes spread the punters out and there's definately going to be more coups and decisions as the games will be quicker.


ACW, perhaps you can come up with some numbers to confirm your view, but with an experienced dealer on the table IMHO there's going to be more decisions per hour on a 7 box BJ with 7 players than on a 5 Box with 5 players.

On a shoe game it would be easy - simply record the shoes dealt, not so easy with CSM's.


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  #33  
Old 6th November 2011
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Lightbulb Hands per hour

A recent post on this thread which has since been removed by the author quoted figures from Jim Kilby's book Casino Operations Management
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471266329

The relevant numbers can also be found at Michael Shakleford's Wizard of Odds website
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/136

So with 5 Boxes a player will play 70 hands per hour. On a 7 box game assuming there are 7 players then each will play 52. So there will be 350 and 360 decisions respectively.
Not much of a difference.

Presumably these numbers were compiled from observing shoe dealt games in the U.S. In other words BCSM's


My arguments for choosing 7 box layouts rather than 5 are also but not limited to...

What if you've only got one table/dealer available and there are six or more players ?
American's aren't familiar with playing behind someone else so the action from player 6 and 7 may be lost.

What if Player 6 or 7 is actually a big money regular player. Can you afford to lose him/her ?

If one goes with the argument that 5 Box BJ results in a quicker and more profitable game then surely the same principle should be applied to Baccarat. Why would you want to have a 9 box table when just 5 betting spots is obviously better ?.


Two only two reasons I can think of at the moment where 5 boxes are superior is that it may make player tracking easier - obviously tracking 5 players on a table is simpler than 7. Also, if players are getting more hands per hour then their volume of action over a specific time period is going to be more significant. A Green player can't hide in the crowd hoping to rack up comps for time played when most of it is actually being spent waiting to make a decision.

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  #34  
Old 6th November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
This would help me estimate my expected loss per hour and weigh it against the comps I am being offered.
In Macau (of all places and please let me know how it is done elsewhere in the world), if you sit alone at a table, the supervisor at the end of play will input your average bet size, so playing one box HK$7000 will get the same input as 7 boxes x HK$1000. Obviously it is then better to play (not my playing style though) 7 boxes, as this takes much more time. Maybe I should suggest to casinos to make a fairer rating by also inputting the average no. of boxes played? (I can already see the supervisor's faces giving them so much extra work)
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  #35  
Old 8th November 2011
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royal caribbean, i believe, has 9 boxes on all shoe games with sidebets. all single decks are 7 boxes with no sidebet. they monitor dealer DPH regularly so will have a lot of data to base their decisions on. whether the data is collected and used correctly is another question.

no one has mentioned cheating so far. i feel it would be hard to alter a bet on a 5 box table with an experienced dealer paying attention. on a 9 box when your attention is inevitably drawn to one of the end boxes you lose direct sight of the other end of the table and must rely on peripheral vision to detect movement. more boxes and players also makes it much harder to keep track of bets, buy-ins, counters, high value chips etc.

Addition: yes RCCL also input the average bet, without taking into account the length of time it takes to make that bet. i have seen a BJ player make what i consider to be purposefully slow bets and decisions and still get rated at $100 average bet even though it takes him maybe 4 times as long to play the same number of hands. imo he is the same as a $25 player and should be rewarded as such.

Last edited by queasydog; 8th November 2011 at 02:53 PM. Reason: addition
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  #36  
Old 6th March 2012
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City of Dreams in Macau is now also on the 5 boxes and added the Over/Under 13.
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  #37  
Old 1st April 2012
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Arrow Cunard Queen Victoria

Nine box BJ onboard Cunard's Queen Victoria.


Empire Casino - Cunard, Queen Victoria
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephan...ls/7035949895/

Fun Pairs sidebet.


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  #38  
Old 19th May 2012
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Lightbulb Costa, Carnival & MSC

Some recent Flickr images. 9 boxes on Cruise ship table games appears the norm.

This is Fun 21 on Costa Cruise lines.

CASINO' VEGA
http://www.flickr.com/photos/il_congi/7223432546/

CASINO' VEGA



Carnival Cruise LInes
casino
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jlhoman/7237384830/

casino




MSC in the Med - 7 Boxes but with additional betting circles

Mittelmeer-Kreuzfahrt 2012
http://www.flickr.com/photos/martin_julia/7210597532/

Mittelmeer-Kreuzfahrt 2012



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  #39  
Old 10th June 2012
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Exclamation Crown Princess

Nine boxes on the Crown Princess - Face Up Blackjack

Gatsby's Casino
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlostracco/5650052132/

Gatsby's Casino
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  #40  
Old 10th June 2012
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Thumbs up Not sure where this is

Seven Boxes - if you can get to them


Pug with Blackjack Table
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zoomar/231974316/

Pug with Blackjack Table
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  #41  
Old 10th June 2012
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Caesars Palace

Was the study, that apparently concluded that 5 Boxes was the optimum number for BJ, concluded before the appearance of a multitude of side bet choices ?

I believe so.

As I've already said on this thread. If you have a busy casino and a high percentage side bet is popular with your BJ players, why have only 5 boxes on the table ?



Here are images from Caesars Palace 2007 and 2008 - Both with 5 boxes

Blackjack table
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmilsom/441787719/

Blackjack table



Pussycat Dolls Blackjack Table
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinkaholicgirl/3531414336/

Pussycat Dolls Blackjack Table
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  #42  
Old 11th June 2012
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Lightbulb 6 Boxes at the Atlantis

Atlantis Casino - image from 2011


Casino...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/glossyboy/6415042147/

Casino...
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  #43  
Old 4th July 2012
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Lightbulb 5 at Harrah's New Orleans

Uninspiring BJ table at Harrah's New Orleans


554T5193
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nostri-imago/7497110870/

554T5193



From the same set check out the positions on this dreadfully designed layout. The game is Flop Poker


http://www.flickr.com/photos/nostri-imago/7497107258/

554T5194


...and why it has 6 boxes !

http://wizardofodds.com/games/flop-poker/


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  #44  
Old 4th July 2012
duffman1869 duffman1869 is offline
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What I have heard

So you may have statistics about how much this brings in with that many boxes but the truth is games slow down with more people. I have heard from people in the business for a long time is the ideal number of players on a table is 3...Why? The game moves faster and it won't slow down the dealer. The main way to make money in blackjack is deal more hands.....So I told him 6-7 was the ideal amount of boxes or player and he said nope, it is 3. It is all about speed and more players slow down the game.
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  #45  
Old 5th July 2012
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Difference between three and six players

Of course a game with six players will always be slower than with three. But is a six box game twice as slow ?. The difference between the two is that with three players the dealer has to pick up and remove the cards twice.

It could be that with three boxes player decisions are reached quicker as their attention is focused, and many may seek games with fewer boxes and seated players simply because they desire quicker action.

It's a different environment on the ships though so that's why nine box, which provides a more communal atmosphere is more common.


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  #46  
Old 1st August 2012
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I remember the Director of the Casino at the Empire telling me they went with 5 box Blackjack because it meant there were "more decisions" which I still think is BS, if you had a 150 box game of Blackjack it would make more money, the house edge remains the same, IMO more money on table being gambled means more win for the house, simples!
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  #47  
Old 1st August 2012
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Red face Wasted space

All I see when there are just 5 boxes on BJ is all the space being taken up for the table, expensive equipment and staffing requirements - all to provide 5 betting positions on traditionally low house advantage game.

Doesn't make sense.

Also when Harrah's did their tests (whenever that was) it was probably on shoe games with dodgy procedures (first, and second cards on the first box dealt and delivered only with the left hand ! ) and with a flock of mainly pudgy fingered dealers.

Nimble and fit Europeans who can bang the cards out at speed IMO have their abilities wasted with just 5 boxes. In my time I wouldn't have minded if there were 11 boxes on the table - would have give me more chance to wipe'em out


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  #48  
Old 15th March 2013
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Arrow Aida Stella - 9 boxes

Another image of 9 box BJ on a cruise ship

AIDAStella
www.flickr.com/photos/golfundreisen/8556703169/

AIDAStella



6 at the Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas


Blackjack Table, Cosmopolitan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lfl/8194565920/

Blackjack Table, Cosmopolitan
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  #49  
Old 13th July 2013
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Exclamation 6 boxes at the Bellagio

Interesting shot of a single, or is it a double deck BJ layout at the Bellagio.


Bellagio blackjack table - Las Vegas, Nevada
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andreamoscato/9270064695/

Bellagio blackjack table - Las Vegas, Nevada



Interesting that there is no mention of how much Blackjack pays. So presumably it's a 6/5 game.

Also looking at the larger image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andream...n/photostream/

Check out the staples around the float tray - that's not how you should fit a BJ layout !


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  #50  
Old 13th July 2013
iyhcroups iyhcroups is offline
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More likely to be multi-deck

Given the continuous shuffle machine on the table, I would guess that Bellagio game is six or eight deck. There is a small discard tray because discards will be replaced in the machine after just a few hands.
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