Card counters

[importculture]

Is it true that the game of blackjack actually offers a negative house advantage for card counters? And is card-counting actually an offence in UK and US casinos? As gaming laws are pretty lax in Malaysia, card-counting is considered ‘legal’ and I believe that is why blackjack tables are seldom in operation. I may be wrong though.

[Craig]

Hi,

As far as I am aware there is no law concerning card counters in the UK or USA, as long as no external device is used, how can something done with the power of the mind be illegal, it would akin to outlawing thinking?

Craig

[jhn]

I think it is only perfect playing conditions that give counters an advantage and that 99.99% of the time there is still a house edge although it is lower than normal.

The americans have a database called griffin that holds details of suspected card counters.I am not sure how accurate it is though.

[Victoria]

As said before, use of your brain is legal here in the states (although legal, using the brain is not done that often here)
In Nevada, a private business has the right to refuse service to someone for any reason except things like racial or sexual discrimination. So a casino with class will let a counter play, if after evaluation, they really do not have an edge or their bet level is low enough to pose no real threat to the casino. If the place with class decides they do not want the counter to play, they generally will tell the person that they are welcome to play any game but blackjack. Other options are flat betting or limiting their spread.
Places that are classless will read the trespass act to the player and remove him from the property, which includes the threat of arrest if he returns.

Most people who count are not proficient enough to really gain an edge but can reduce the house edge. Some, depending on the rules, could gain an edge over 1%.

Though people in operations understand this, casinos and the Griffin detective agency have for years put an illegal spin on counting and many of the public believe it to be illegal. Just last week on the website of a Vegas tv station a reporter wrote a piece that basically called slot cheats, chip counterfeiters and card counters one in the same. My letter to her editor and her have gone unanswered. Griffin is notorious for doing the same and today in Nevada, they may have to start paying the price for their lies and slander. The penalty phase of the wrongful detention of Russo and Grosjean, I believe starts today.
Griffin is really a small company, about 7 employees, that has contracts with many casinos to investigate, compile and distribute information about casino cheats and honest advantage players. In the process of doing this, they lump the cheat and advantage player together without much difference made on their end. They list associates. People who just happened to be at the same table innocently with a card counter or cheat have been listed in Griffin. People who have had disagreements with certain casino execs, but are not cheats nor advantage players are currently listed in the Griffin books. Griffin has operated recklessly with the reputation of people without penalty for way too long, but I think after today you will see more lawsuits against them. They are actually not needed and I expect that the big players in the business (MGM and Harrah's) will take this huge waisted expense and bring it all in house shortly.
Victoria

[retro22]

thing is if one were to do a study i'm sure they could show
that casino profits would be better served if card counters
were treated with respect or, if thats asking too much at
least not with disrespect (you could always bar them from
bj in either case). people that hear the nowadays
almost mythic card counting dream story are the ones buying
the how to books, going to gamble which in some cases they
mite not ever have done if not for the myth and spending a
lot of money before even getting a glimpse of the effort in-
volved to squeeze out that PITIFUL 1 % edge. do any doubt
that overall card counting puts money in casino vaults.

if too much time goes by after the M.I.T. story the industry
should fabricate it's own counters get rich story- what better
advertising could you want.

i would think Griffin reflects the views of those that pay him
and even to the extent of reducing overall profit his employ-
ers just can't stand to get beat at their own game- to actually
PAY someone to play at THEIR tables- not in the USA and to
hell with your lost profits!

Retro22

[sgiles]

I don't have a problem with individual counters, it is the organized team players that concern me.

Right or wrong, the casino manager is responsible for explaining variations in the projected win/loss of the table games department. Part of the job is to avoid being taken down by team play which would involve using "no mid shoe entry" signs and other legal means to discourage counters.

The Griffen book is often out of date and by the time a team is usually identified, it is too late.I just accept it as the pit falls of the business that we are in.

They want the money and so do we. They use skills to try and get it and we use our skills to keep them away. It is a business after all and no casino can afford to give the advantage to the player no matter how "sporting" that might me.

It is not about being "fair" to counters , it is about keeping my job so I can pay my bills.