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-   -   Stolen money - Should casinos pay it back? (http://gamingfloor.biz/forum/showthread.php?t=651)

ian 18th October 2003 12:14 AM

Stolen money - Should casinos pay it back?
 
A court case has proven, and a conviction has been handed down. Customer A stole money from Company B.

He/she gambled away the proceeds of the crime in Casino C. Should Casino C then be made to refund the money lost to Company B?

I also assume that during the case it has been established beyond doubt that the money was indeed lost and that Casino C has records of the amount.

If the money was found at Customer A's house or in a bank account it would be automatically returned.

What do you think and what would be the end result if such rules for casinos became law.?

Ian

Michelle 18th October 2003 09:30 PM

If I unknowingly bought a stolen car and the police traced that car to me, I would have to hand it over with no hope of compensation.

I think the same law would apply in this case - Casino C will most probably have to return the money even though they are in no way at fault.

ian 18th October 2003 09:33 PM

Should Bookmakers also pay it back!
 
Two cases from Australia where the amounts stolen totalled A$30 million.

Mug banker blew $19m at the track
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...364487727.html

A quite amazing report. The Bookmakers involved being International All Sports and Sportingbet Australia both based in Northern Territory.

Sportingbet is now fighting in the Australian courts over whether indeed they should have to repay the amount lost by their client.

The other remarkable aspect is that the bank where A$18,998,309.36 was stolen did not know until their manager gave himself up!

Ian

Craig 19th October 2003 05:11 AM

Hi,

Can't see why casino C should re-pay the money, this guy went into the casino and lost! They didn't know the money was stolen, there was no way to check if it was (unlike a car- Michelle), so why should they be penalised?

It is the person who stole the money in the first place that should be held accountable, not the innocent third party!

As for the bookies thing in OZ, it is absolutely incredible, how could he steal that amount of money and not be discovered until he owned up to it - amazing!

But, you have to ask yourself, what did he spend the A$9.36 on? Maybe a Big Mac and chips ;)

Craig

ian 19th October 2003 10:42 AM

Mmm $9.36
 
Perhaps it was on Ebay - That famous work "How to win on the Ponies for Dummies".

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...0&BasicSearch=

In the case of the Bank Manager it would appear he was the ultimate mug punter as described in the newspaper headline.

But there are other more calculating and single minded individuals who may want to use a casino to cover their tracks for the eventual destination of stolen funds.

I am reminded of early regulations in Greece (pre- privatisation) where a customer had to prove earnings with details from bank managers and tax returns before being even allowed to gamble.

That would be going too far but certainly with recent events and the ongoing "Global war on Terror" as it is called, casino operators and bookmakers will surely have to be more diligent.

Ian

piikeaa 23rd October 2003 07:47 PM

Stolen money - Should casinos pay it back?
 
Yes.

The court case should be made regarding the details for Casino C to recover its overheads and operating costs while the stolen money was in house. I believe though, that it would take a pretty damm wise, enlightened, visionary, sophosticated operator who could see beyond such a spectable to grasp the mammoth p/r bonus such a tactic would land his company.

anin 24th October 2003 12:59 AM

In cases where the casino is able to show the customerís losses it might be feasible. In the 70ís I worked in darkest Africa in a country where there was a spate of middle to senior civil servants caught with fingers in the till. Each and every one claimed to have lost the money in the casino. Apart from one they were not known to any of the staff, they had all hidden their ill-gotten wealth and claimed casino losses to put the local constabulary off searching for it. An average of 5 years with time off for good behavior and they were free to live like kings.
If the casino had been forced to repay all the money claimed to have been lost there we would have been claiming tax back from the government and been guilty of underreporting our revenues!
Each case should be viewed separately and dealt with according to the provable facts. For this to happen litigation will possibly be the only answer.

anin

H A N D 29th October 2003 02:55 PM

Does It Work Both Ways
 
What If a punter comes in with stolen money and WINS
Can the casino CLAIM the winnings back ?????

True Blue Boy 29th October 2003 10:32 PM

Hand has a very good point everyone knows you could never get the money back if someone won, but don't you think if it were known the the a Casino or bookies had to repay lost money that was proved to be stolen more people would steal to gamble knowing that their firm would not lose out.

ian 30th October 2003 10:47 PM

Does a thief care about anyone
 
Other than themselves?

I do not think the point that True Blue makes is correct. In my mind an employee dipping into the till is hardly going to be thinking "They will get it back if I'm caught"" as they plan their next betting spree.

What many do however is delude themselves that they themselves will make good the balance, when they win.

Some may well do that. Others don't, or if they are slot players they will perhaps never get a chance to do so, loosing from day 1 onwards.

At the moment there is a high profile trial in Australia involving almost A$20 million bet on the ponies by a bank manager.

There is also the case of an Asian player arrested in Singapore for allegedly stealing over A$100 million most ending up on Oz baccarat tables.

Both of these cases could have been avoided if the companies concerned had chosen to be more diligent. If the money is not repaid then executives, shareholders and government's to whom tax was paid are all directly benefitting from the proceeds of crime.

IMVHO ;)

Ian


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